Helping Fallen Away Loved Ones: Support (2)

Apologetics

Discussion Points to Consider: Founding of Church / Papal Primacy

* Christ - that is, GOD - founded only one Church and expects us all to join it, not find our own:

"Jesus said to [Peter] in reply, 'Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah. For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my heavenly Father. And so I say to you, you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of the netherworld shall not prevail against it. I will give you the keys to the kingdom of heaven. Whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven; and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.'" (Mt. 16:17-19)

"Whoever listens to you listens to me. Whoever rejects you rejects me. And whoever rejects me rejects the one who sent me." (Our Lord Jesus Christ, Lk. 10:16)

"If he refuses to listen even to the church, then treat him as you would a Gentile or a tax collector." (Our Lord Jesus Christ, cf. Mt. 18:17)

* All 'churches' but the Catholic Church were founded by men

* Since Christ founded only one Church and you are not in it, you are not part of Christ's body

* The facts prove that the Catholic Church was the only one established by Christ and existing since Christ

* If you argue that the papacy didn't exist in the first century, how can you explain quotations such as this one? - "If certain persons should be disobedient unto the words spoken by Him through us, let them understand that they will entangle themselves in no slight transgression and danger." (Pope St. Clement, c. 95 A.D.)

Also See: 

Church (Topical Scripture)

Pope (Topical Scripture)

Vatican View Section

Catholic Basics Section

Non-Catholics Section (apologetics)

Discussion Points to Consider: History of Their Religion

* Your religion is a recent creation

* Your religion didn't exist for ## hundred years until after Christ's death

* The founder of your religion (if Luther) has been described as "ill-tempered and unbalanced". How much do you know about him? Did you know his doctrines were approved by Satan? Did you know he threw excrement at Satan? Did you know he advised people to continue in sin?

* Advise them to look critically into the beginning of their religion.

* Advise them to look critically into the founders of their religion. The lives of some of them are so scandalous that they probably wouldn't buy a used car from them - yet they base their eternal salvation on their teachings!

* Advise them to look critically at the fruits of their religion.

Also See: Non-Catholics Section (apologetics)

Discussion Points to Consider: Not Saved by Faith Alone

* How can you say salvation depends on faith alone when Scripture says...?

* Baptism is necessary for salvation (Jn. 3:5)

* Reception of the Eucharist is necessary for salvation (Jn. 6:53)

* "[F]aith without works is dead" (Jms. 2:26) 

* Christ's judgment will factor in whether or not one did good works for others (Mt. 25:31-46)

* Those who have done good deeds will enjoy the resurrection of life (Jn. 5:29)

* The dead are judged according to their deeds. (Rv. 20:12-13)

* Etc...

* Note that when Scripture says one's faith has saved someone - these words are "not directed to those persisting in sin. They are already following the commandments and were only in need of the faith. Faith is a first step, but it is not the only step." As a comparison, a man could say he bought a house after signing mortgage papers. However, he doesn't actually own the house until he pays off the loan. But if he says he "bought a house", no one questions him. In reality, he really has only completed one important part of the home buying process. He will not own the house until all required conditions are satisfied (e.g. until he pays off the mortgage). 

* You say faith? Even Jewish historians and atheists accept that Christ was here and was crucified. What exactly do you have faith in?

* The devil himself believes Christ is our Messiah! That certainly does not save him! 

* Clearly more than faith is required!

Also See: Non-Catholics Section (apologetics)

Discussion Points to Consider: Not Bible Alone

* "If salvation is to be found in a single book, why didn't Jesus write the book or recommend that we read it?"

* "If you do not accept what is introduced apart from Scripture, why do you accept Bible alone theory? - It is not in the Bible."  

* Since Jesus does not even refer to a written New Testament, where is your justification for a 'bible alone theory'? Where is your command to do this? 

* The Bible itself condemns sola scriptura - 2 Thes. 2:15 specifically says that some traditions are oral! St. John 21:25 says not all that Jesus did is written down.

* If the bible alone theory was correct, how would it work since the earliest Christians never had bibles?

* If the bible alone theory was correct, how would it have worked in the past since most people were illiterate?

* If the bible alone theory was correct, how would have worked in the past since there were no printing presses or copy machines?

* If the bible alone theory was correct, why did the apostles not leave a complete, compiled bible? Remember that the canon of Scripture was determined by the Catholic Church.

* Does it disturb you that you wouldn't even know about Jesus or have a bible if it wasn't for the Catholic Church? You do know that the Catholic Church preserved the Bible for hundreds of years before your religion was founded, didn't you?

* If the bible alone theory was correct, does it not bother you to contemplate the fact that Christ did not speak English? You are relying on someone else's translation of what He said. Remember that there are no original sources to confirm back to (not that you would be an expert in ancient languages even if there were such original sources to compare to).

* The bible alone theory is not biblical

* The bible alone theory has no historical basis

* The bible alone theory is impractical

* Why is you believe in the bible alone theory? Is it simply because you want to?

Also See: Non-Catholics Section (apologetics)

Discussion Points to Consider: Non-Catholic Bibles

* Why is that Protestant Bibles reject books of the bible that both the Apostles and Christ accepted (the deuterocanonical books)? Are you really prepared to argue against Christ's and the Apostles' use of these books based on the fact that Jewish authorities after Christ rejected them?

* Are you aware that Protestant Bibles were altered on the whim of man in certain areas where they confirmed Catholic teaching? (e.g. Luther's adding of the word "only" to Romans 3:28 to justify the doctrine of "faith alone")

* If you believe in the bible only theory, does it not bother you that Protestant bibles have been shown to be tainted with errors and mistranslations?

Also See: Non-Catholics Section (apologetics)

Discussion Points to Consider: Scripture (Personal Interpretation)

* How do you claim the Holy Spirit guides people directly when interpreting the Bible considering that different persons interpret the same passages differently? Are you suggesting that the Holy Spirit - that is, God - contradicts Himself? Would not all interpret the same way if they were guided by the Holy Spirit?

* If you believe the Holy Spirit personally leads you to all truth, think back for a moment to the first Christian Pentecost when we know for certain that Christ's disciples received the Holy Spirit. Did they not all think and teach the same thing? How do you explain that those first Christians who - without a doubt - had received the Holy Spirit all taught the same thing whereas you don't think the same thing as others whom you believe receive guidance from the Holy Spirit? What makes you think you have the guidance of the Holy Spirit if you don't all think the same thing? Remember that the Holy Spirit is the "remover of errors" and the "Spirit of truth". How then can you claim that the Holy Spirit leads all of you to different "truths"?

* If you come to one conclusion, while another Protestant comes to a different conclusion, you cannot both be right. Does this not immediately disprove your theory? How can you accept both opposing points as valid? Doing so discards all logic! Yet you claim that you both have the Holy Spirit! Truth itself!

* How do you know it is the Holy Spirit and not some other spirit?

* "How do you know it is the Holy Spirit and not your imagination?" Seriously, how?

* "If professional exegetes with much learning and knowledge of ancient languages disagree with your interpretation, how is it that you can say you are right and they are wrong?" 

* "How is that you think you can fathom the infinite without the divine teaching authority of the Church? You, who cannot even do trigonometry or astrophysics or ...?"

* "The mind has been described as 'Satan's lawyer'" - yet you rely on it for your salvation?

* "If you claim perfect personal interpretation for every passage of Scripture, you claim far more than any pope!"

* Considering that "people are easily misled, our conscience is affected by our wants and our desires and by peer pressure", how can you be sure you have the truth? How can you be sure you have not been deceived?

* If you are your own teacher, you must be submitting to errors. You are not infallible.

* If you think personal interpretation is okay, "what safeguard do you have that you will not distort or misunderstand Scripture to suit what you think something should mean? How do you prevent this? How do others prevent this? If your system is foolproof, why does not everyone have the same 'truth' as you have?"

* Since you are relying on a previous translation of the Bible and not an original copy (no original copies exist), how do you know it is not already mistranslated before you even begin your "personal interpretation"? How can you be sure of the translation when there is no way to verify it?

* Who appointed you "the final court of appeal in matters of doctrine"?

* If you rely on the Holy Spirit to direct you to all truth, ask the Holy Spirit how you got the bible. Ask the Holy Spirit to help you read the ancient languages that the bible was written in. Ask the Holy Spirit to tell you what the unwritten traditions are. Or does the Holy Spirit only guide you to interpreting what is already written by others?

* How is it that the Holy Spirit directs other people to different "truths" - or do you have a monopoly on the guidance of the Holy Spirit?

* What if someone else thinks they are guided by the Holy Spirit, but they disagree with your interpretation. Are they automatically wrong and you automatically right? Why would the Holy Spirit, the Spirit of Truth, guide you both differently?

* How do you know you are not misinterpreting the guidance of the Holy Spirit? How do you know (and how can you confirm) that this guidance is of the Holy Spirit? Is it a feeling? When was the first time you felt it? How were you guided before that? Is the Holy Spirit "on call" for you, and ready for you each time you choose to read the Bible? What if you do not have this feeling - how do you know what is true? 

* Does each Protestant automatically have this guarantee of the Holy Spirit? 

* If the Holy Spirit directs you to all truth, why are there 30,000+ sects of Protestantism?

* If personal interpretation was true, why is it that the bible itself speaks against personal interpretation? (see 2 Pt. 1:20)

* Why do you claim more guidance of the Holy Spirit for yourself than Catholics do for the pope? 

* How do you know you stand in truth? Are you ever wrong? What do you think the consequences are if you are not really standing in truth? 

* "Are you implying that truth and error are the same, or are equally good?"

Also See:

Personal Interpretation of Scripture / Rejection of Truth (Coming Home Reflections)

Non-Catholics Section (apologetics)

Discussion Points to Consider: The Holy Eucharist

* If you were once Catholic and now you are Protestant and you reject the Real Presence of the Eucharist, do you consider Catholics to be idolaters? It follows that you would have to. If so, do you believe you were guilty of idolatry before you became a Protestant? Do you also convict all the Apostles and early Christians for idolatry for believing in the Real Presence?

* If you were to see someone do evil things to the Holy Eucharist, it truly would not bother you? You would, in fact, even think it was good? In fact, you positively desire that Host be desecrated?

* How can you explain the scientifically verified Eucharistic miracles?

* If the Eucharist is not truly Christ's flesh, why did the apostles and early Christians teach that it was?

* If the Eucharist is not truly Christ's flesh, why does Christ say you must receive it to receive eternal life?

* If the Eucharist is not truly Christ's flesh, why does St. Paul say that those who receive it without discerning the body eat and drink judgment upon themselves? (See 1 Cor. 11:29)

* If the Eucharist is not truly Christ's flesh, why does St. Paul say that those who receive it unworthily will have to answer for the body and blood of the Lord? (See 1 Cor. 11:27)

* If the Eucharist is not truly Christ's flesh, why does St. Paul say blame the illnesses and dying on their unworthy reception of the Eucharist? (1 Cor. 11:30)

* If the Eucharist is not truly Christ's flesh, why did Christ say it is? (Jn. 6:55, Mt. 26:26, Mk. 14:22, Lk. 22:19)

* Christ says to do "this" in memory of him (Lk. 22:19) - are you implying that "this" means to pretend to consume His flesh and blood?

* If you are going to deny His Body and Blood, be really sure because the first persons to leave Jesus were the ones who could not accept his Eucharistic teaching (see Jn. 6:66). Note also that Christ didn't change his teaching when it was not accepted by those followers, but asked his apostles if they also wished to leave Him. Further, note that those who didn't accept Christ's Eucharistic teaching may be considered unbelievers (see Jn. 6:64)

* You may be wise to place your first/primary focus first on the doctrine of the Eucharist - remember that the Catholic faith stands or falls on the doctrine of the Eucharist.

* Consider asking "If you still do believe in the Real Presence, what on earth could make you leave the Church? What in the world could make you leave the only Church which truly and lawfully dispenses the Holy Eucharist? Is it the donuts? The freedom? The companions? The 'good music'? What is that you traded Christ for?"

Also See: Sacraments Section | Non-Catholics Section (apologetics)

Discussion Points to Consider: The Blessed Virgin Mary

* Why is it that an angel called Mary "blessed", St. Elizabeth called Mary "blessed" and Mary herself, pregnant with Christ, said "all generations will call [her] blessed", yet you think it is somehow wrong to call her blessed? Or, why do you fail to call her blessed in fulfillment of her own prophecy?

* Would you really be offended if someone praised your mother? "Let us not imagine that we obscure the glory of the Son by the praise we lavish on the Mother; for the more she is honored, the greater is the glory of her Son." (St. Bernard of Clairvaux, Doctor of the Church)

* How can you not honor Mary? How is you feel you would have any chance of salvation without her role in it?

* Why is it you deny Mary's motherhood over you when Holy Scripture says that "the dragon became angry with the woman and went off to wage war against the rest of her offspring, those who keep God's commandments and bear witness to Jesus." Are you therefore admitting you do not keep God's commandments and bear witness to Jesus if you claim not to be her offspring?

* How do you dare deny Mary's perpetual virginity? Why do you argue against it considering that Scripture says of a mere gate "This gate is to remain closed; it is not to be opened for anyone to enter by it; since the LORD, the God of Israel, has entered by it, it shall remain closed." (Ezek. 44:2) Further, why would Christ entrust his mother to St. John if he had other siblings?

* How do you dare deny Mary's sinlessness? You would make the mother of Christ a sinner? How could the one who was foretold in Gen 3:15 crush the head of Satan if she had once been under his control?

* How do you deny Mary's bodily assumption into heaven? Do you also deny that Elijah was taken to heaven? How do you account for the fact that no one has ever claimed her relics, even though Christian relics have always been preserved as precious gems - how much more so would Christ's mother's have been!

* How could you ever consider any legitimate honor paid to Mary to be excessive? How could one ever honor Mary enough given her relationship to the Blessed Trinity, and also in light of her role in our salvation?

Also See: Mary, Our Mother Section | Non-Catholics Section (apologetics)

Discussion Points to Consider: Heresy

* If there is heresy (cf. Ti. 3:10), there has to be fixed truths that must be believed - one is not permitted to believe however one wishes to believe or whatever one 'feels' is true

* St. John the Apostle wouldn't even remain in a building with a heretic, yet you tolerate any variety of heresy under the banner of "personal interpretation"

* St. Polycarp, a disciple of St. John the Apostle, told a heretic he was the "firstborn of Satan", yet you would give license to the same heretic under the banner of "personal interpretation"

* Scripture tells us not even greet heretics, yet you would argue in favor of the false & contradictory teachings of heretics under the banner of "personal interpretation"

* Scripture says to "guard what has been entrusted to you..." (1 Tim. 6:20), yet you reject what was entrusted in favor of your own personal interpretation

* Holy Scripture urges unity of belief and rejection of novel doctrines, yet you allow disunity among believers and the toleration of novel doctrines under the banner of "personal interpretation"

Also See: Heresy/Heretics & Schism/Schismatics (Coming Home Reflections) | Non-Catholics Section (apologetics)

Discussion Points to Consider: Visible Church / Hierarchy

* You reject a visible, hierarchal church, yet Scripture clearly shows St. Peter receiving a supreme office in the Church

* You reject a visible, hierarchal church, yet Scripture clearly shows the apostles receiving an office in the Church

* You reject a visible, hierarchal church, yet Scripture clearly tells us that those who reject whom Christ has appointed reject him

* You reject a visible, hierarchal church, yet Scripture clearly shows another being appointed to take over Judas' place

* You reject a visible, hierarchal church, yet Scripture clearly refers to the hierarchical nature of the Church

* You reject a visible, hierarchal church, yet history shows that Christ's Church has always been a visible, hierarchical church

* Why would we be commanded to obey the ministers of the Church if it were unnecessary?

* There has to be an organized way to pass on the faith to future generations

* There has to be visible structure to dispense the sacraments and maintain the truths of the faith

* There has to be a visible structure to secure that the authority given the apostles by Christ is passed on (e.g. power of the keys, power to forgive sins)

* There had to have been a supreme authority to determine the books of the bible since "there is no inspired table of contents"

* All societies have a structure (e.g. families, governments, companies, etc.), so why not religion? Those without structure would perish in no time.

* "An invisible church is not biblical."

* "An invisible church does not take into account the realities of this world with visible people!"

Also See: The Visible Church (Vatican View Reflections) | Non-Catholics Section (apologetics)

Discussion Points to Consider: Those Who Reject Confession

* You reject Confession, yet Scripture clearly shows that the Apostles were given the power to bind and lose, to forgive and not to forgive:

"And when he had said this, he breathed on them and said to them, "Receive the Holy Spirit. Whose sins you forgive are forgiven them, and whose sins you retain are retained." (Jn. 20:22-23)

"I will give you the keys to the kingdom of heaven. Whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven; and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven." (Mt. 16:19)

"Amen, I say to you, whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven." (Mt. 18:18)

Do you call Christ a liar?

Also See: Sacraments Section | Non-Catholics Section (apologetics)

Putting them on the defensive...

* "You are basing your eternal salvation on errors and lies"

* "You repudiate the wisdom and teaching of the ancient church and deny history when you say ___"

* "How is it you know better than the many learned, spiritual persons who came before you?"

* "If Christ founded only one Church, how can every sect be a way to salvation?"

* "How can we _____, when Scripture says ____?"

* Why do you prefer a 'church' invented by man to the only Church founded by Christ?

* Do you prefer a religion you can design for yourself to truth?

* "How is that you feel excused from Jesus' law against ___ (divorce, etc.)?"

* When did Jesus say you could decide what you wanted to believe?

* "Are you saying that Jesus spoke wrongly when he said... or that Christ said something untrue?"

* "You had better be sure, considering that your eternal future is at stake!"

* If the Catholic Church is so 'corrupt', how is it that she has survived and is virtually alone in teaching against abortion, birth control, divorce, homosexual acts, etc.?

* How is it you believe Christ left the Church in error, despite His promises?

* If Scripture tells us to hold fast to oral traditions, what are they?

* If you believe in the Trinity but the word 'Trinity' is not in the Bible, why do you believe in it?

* Why is it you reject the authority of the Catholic Church, but accept the New Testament which was determined by her?

* Why is it that Christ says he will build his Church on St. Peter, but you say He did not do so? ["And so I say to you, you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of the netherworld shall not prevail against it." (Mt. 16:18)]

* Your religion must be either true or false - there is no third choice. How can you prove yours is true?

* How is it you reject the Church when Scripture says "If he refuses to listen even to the church, then treat him as you would a Gentile or a tax collector" (Mt. 18:17)?

* Why is it you wish to remain in your error?

* Why is it you feel you may set aside the commands of God?

* "What kind of impulse allows you to reject the priesthood with the power to cleanse and consecrate and provide the sacraments necessary for eternal life?"

 * Do you not realize your faith is a matter of life and death?

* Does it not bother you that the author/founder of your faith is a man?

* Why do you let someone preach "another Christ" to you?

* Does it not strike you as troubling that your faith is an invention of the 1500's?

* "Is it not troubling to you that your faith was started by a bad Catholic? That your Protestant 'heroes' (e.g. Luther) were former Catholics who had turned against the Church? That they were not themselves always certain of their teachings? Is it not disconcerting that you are not following the religion of the saints but that of dead heretics?"

* How do you say you love Christ if you do not keep his commandments? Christ says "If you love me, you will keep my commandments." (Jn.14:15) St. John says "the love of God is this, that we keep his commandments" (1 Jn. 5:3) and "For this is love, that we walk according to his commandments" (2 Jn. 1:6). 

* In light of the Gospels, does it not seem strange to expect salvation from a "tell us what we want to hear" religion?

* You want to follow your own way? "What makes you think your way is worthy of the God you worship? God has told us how to worship him. Has He not a right to prefer his own way to yours? If you really love someone, do you not want to please them, and not yourself?"

* How do you explain the fact that without the Catholic Church you would not have a bible?

* If you were dying, you really would not want the Catholic priest?

* How much of your faith's origin have you examined? Consider the wise advice of one living in the second century: "nothing ought to be believed rashly - and anything is indeed rashly believed if it is believed without an examination of its origin." 

* Where is virginity, so praised by Christ and St. Paul, in your religion? Or did your religion exempt itself from this teaching? (cf. Mt. 19:10-12, 1 Cor.7:8, 38, Rv. 14:4)

* Where is fasting in your religion? Or did your religion exempt itself from this teaching? (Mt. 6:1)

* Where does your religion fulfill the Mother of God's prophecy about all generations calling her blessed? (Lk. 1:48)

* Christ categorically rejected divorce. Why does your religion permit it?

* How can you criticize the Church that has produced St. Patrick, St. Francis of Assisi, St Theresa, St. Thomas Aquinas, St. Augustine, St. Jerome...?

Also See: Non-Catholics Section (apologetics)

They Gain, Not Loose by Conversion to Catholicism

It may be helpful to remind them:

* That they do not lose any truths they may have by becoming Catholic - rather they "gain the full, complete, and perfect truth"

* That they are not giving up God or Christ or their love for Him. On the contrary, they are "directing their love to truth and growing in their love"

* That any worthy philanthropic activities they may be involved in may also be done in the Catholic Church.

* That they do not loose by becoming Catholic - they gain! What they do give up are up are errors for truth, partial/corrupted Scriptures for complete Scriptures, disunity for unity, etc.

* That while they say they want a "personal relationship with Jesus" they cannot possibly have "a more personal relationship" with Jesus' than by consuming Christ's flesh! "As two pieces of wax fused together make up one, so he who receives Holy Communion is so united with Christ that Christ is in him and he is in Christ." (St. Cyril of Alexandria, Doctor of the Church)

Also See: What They Are Missing (Coming Home: Support | Non-Catholics Section (apologetics)

Also Consider:

* Questioning them about their faith - maybe they will see that many of their own arguments aren't logical

* Working on their biggest objections first. Note that these will differ depending upon the person. Remember that it can be very difficult to find out what their objections really are, and the ones volunteered by them may not be the most significant ones. 

* Being very careful to use proper terms to refer to their adopted religion (e.g. sect, denomination). Do not use the word 'church' to refer to their religion or refer to the "Protestant Rebellion" (or "Revolt") as a "Reformation". 

* Keeping in mind that Protestants and other "Christians" have a DIFFERENT religion than Catholicism! One can't try to ignore or minimize this difference.

* Emphasizing how their 'church' was founded by a man - and that only the Catholic Church was founded by Christ. "What nerve to create one's own 'church'!"

* Remembering that the other person may have been strongly influenced by others. Note that some may have greatly obscured/falsified the facts.

* That if they reject Christ's Church, they reject Christ

* "If heaven can be entered without the power of the keys, in vain would they to whom the keys were given seek to prevent entrance within its portals... Was there then no reason for saying 'whatsoever you loose on earth, shall be loosed in heaven'; no reason why the keys were given to the Church of God?"

* No matter how good you feel your religion is, it is actually a disobedience to Christ's command - which can never be good. "Attempts to be virtuous that are joined to disobedience to the will of God, no matter how good they may appear, will actually work for our damnation." (St. Thomas More)

Also see items below...

Resources to Consider on This Site:

The Importance of Being Catholic / No Salvation Outside the Church

Coming Home: Scripture Resources

Non-Catholics Section (apologetics)

Necessity of Being Catholic For Salvation (Coming Home Reflections)

Those Outside the Church (Coming Home Reflections)

Heresy/Heretics & Schism/Schismatics (Coming Home Reflections)

Truth / Error / Nature of Man (Coming Home Reflections)

Personal Interpretation of Scripture / Rejection of Truth (Coming Home Reflections)

What Jesus Says vs. What Protestantism Says (Coming Home Reflections)

Why Trust Martin Luther? (Coming Home Reflections)

More Coming Home Reflections

Catholic Basics Section

Sacraments Section

Vatican View Section

Why I Love Being Catholic

Coming Home (User Posts): View Posts | Search Posts 

Church (Topical Scripture)

Pope (Topical Scripture)

More Topical Scripture: Alphabetical | Categorized

Teachings of Jesus

Other New Testament Teachings 

Tough Love in the New Testament  

More Scripture / Parables

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Tips for Apologists

Helping A Loved One Who Has Left the Church or Who Isn't Practicing Their Faith